Greetings Gary! I am replying again in an attempt to answer your questions and not necessarily to have the "last word" as you suggest.

Today, Gary asks: "Why do you continue to imply that I wish to avoid discussion of Hell?"

CB replies: My position is that when we talk about salvation we need to talk about Hell as often as Heaven. In other words, 100% discussion of Hell when we discuss Heaven so that people may be informed of the TRUTH. This is naturally opposed to your recommended position of 20% which was stated by you on 07.13.10, quote, "I already stated we should talk about Hell...perhaps 20% as much as we talk about Heaven." Today, Gary asks: "Why do you feel so compelled to challenge me?" CB replies: Gary, if that is what I did, then why did you feel compelled to initially challenge Pastor Bishir? Is it okay to take each other to task about important issues? Are we challenging each OTHER or are we challenging our POSITIONS about certain issues? Are we able to learn new things from each other via this media and edify one another? I am not challenging you, sir, this is not at all personal. We do not even know each other. Because you are a professing Christian, I know that you are my brother in the Lord, therefore, I also know that we are to be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love. That is how I feel toward you, my brother, Gary. If this is to be the final word, then so be it, but we welcome everyone to continue writing on Pastor's blog because that is something that can bring joy to our Pastor's heart and honor & glory to the Lord. I sincerely hope that you will keep commenting on the Bishir Blog, Gary. God bless you. -CB

CB - Why do you continue to imply that I wish to avoid discussion of Hell? I have stated the opposite. Why do you feel so compelled to challenge me? I made a comment to my pastor that I believe he received graciously. (This is after all his blog) I have no desire to continue to defend myself because of my views to your challenges. I believe I have spoken from the heart and with clarity and will not engage with you any longer in what has become a pointless debate. If it is the last word on the subject that you seek...I offer it to you now.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also." (1 John 4:18-21 KJV)

Please re-read everything that I have written so far, Gary, and no where will you find that I ever said that your "focus on Love and the freedom from fear it brings is in error." (as you stated in your last comment.) I have been discussing salvation and the need to present the topic of Hell when leading someone to repentance and salvation, not the freedom from fear that perfect love brings. Whole other subject.

Also, Gary, please don't think that I am coming back AT you (as you also stated in your last comment.) We are having a nice discussion and I am responding to your statements in LOVE, because it is paramount that we understand the importance of telling people about Hell when telling them about Heaven and how to be saved from going to Hell. We agree on many points, sir, but what we might not agree on is as follows:

A. Gary states, Jesus spoke more about heaven than hell and we shouldn't "scare people" into salvation. B. CB states, when we are leading someone to salvation, somewhere in the message we MUST discuss hell and sin. If people get scared as a result of that truth, so be it. Hell is real and it is scary. Scaring them is not our motive but rather the result of the truth we have told them. We should not avoid discussing "hell' in order to keep someone from being scared. Our motive is leading people to make an informed decision to be saved by believing on Jesus Christ and what he did on the cross when he died for our sins, the very sins that otherwise will send us straight to hell "do not pass go or collect $200.00" and so that they would therefore repent and be saved from that consequence of sin which is eternal separation from God in a lake of fire, aka Hell.

IT IS FINISHED! Jesus conquered death. Jesus fulfilled the law. Satan is defeated. Jesus is the able sacrifice that satisfied the payment that our sin earned. When we believe and repent we receive a "get outta HELL free" card, so to speak, bought and paid for by Jesus Christ. In other words, we didn't have to pay for it, we were not able to pay for it, so, Jesus paid for it with Himself. It is finished! His perfect work, his unspeakable gift is completed on the cross.

Your 20% needs to be 100%. Gary, the lost need to realize that they are lost and hell bound in order to believe, repent and be heaven bound. Perhaps I am not the best person to explain this to you. Let's agree to pray for the Holy Spirit's wisdom and future discernment regarding this topic. -CB

13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. 16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:13-8

My great joy when I share Christ with people is NOT in telling them they need to be afraid...but that they can meet a Savior whose LOVE can drive out all their fears. Yes apart from Christ they are in fear of punishment and in bondage to their sins. That is what makes to Love of Christ so wonderful...they can literally turn from their fear into perfect love. I am not quite sure why you keep coming back at me...as I struggle to see why you think my focus on Love and the freedom from fear it brings is in error. I already stated we should talk about Hell...perhaps 20% as much as we talk about Heaven.

You asked what I thought Jesus was focused on when He was on the cross. This is my answer. What the law was powerless to do He did for me on the cross and when He uttered those incredible and glorious words "IT IS FINISHED" all of my sin, all of my condemnation, all of my fear was conquered forever. Love was perfected and completed and my fear has been "driven out".. It is finished indeed!

PTL for a new week! I am thankful that we have been given this opportunity via the Bishir Blog and Liberty website to express our thoughts. Yes, Gary, I see that your initial comment was about a statement made by Pastor Bishir concerning how many times Jesus spoke about Hell verses how many times He spoke about Heaven. To me, that is not as important as what evolved from there. I guess what concerns me most is the idea behind what you later said, "but I struggle with reconciling the idea of scaring people into heaven with Christ's overwhelming focus on Love and a desire for a personal relationship with them." In my reply to you, that is what I am trying to address. It is not the fact that you struggle with something, because there are things we all struggle with, it is the fact that in your struggling you seem to be implying that it is wrong to "[scare] people" with the TRUTH about Hell. In that, you have passed inaccurate judgement on the motives of others who believe it is equally important to share that TRUTH. Therefore, my purpose in addressing that issue is to show what the TRUTH about Hell is and why it is important to share it with people when we talk to them about salvation. If they become fearful from the TRUTH, then so be it. Please see the Bible verse that was quoted by Pastor Bishir in his point #2 above.

The goal is not to scare anyone or force them into making a decision for Christ, but to tell them the TRUTH about Hell, the fact that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (thereby deserving Hell) and that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven (thereby escaping Hell) so that they then can make an informed decision to repent and have a hope of Heaven, or worse yet, to reject God's free gift and end up one day in Hell. The end result of that rejection should be to "[FEAR] him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell" which is a term that Jesus Himself uses in Mt 10:28. I am definitely not negating your wonderful point that God loves us, Gary. God's AGAPE love is the central theme of the Bible. His love is found all the way from before "In the beginning" and the Garden of Eden of Genesis to after the "Amen" of Revelation. His eternal love sent Jesus to die for us so that we don't have to go to the Hell that we deserve. His love spared the Israelites from His well deserved wrath by giving them a chance to repent. God's love led the Hebrew Jonah to the Nineveh Gentiles, on and on we could go... I believe Gary, if we pattern ourselves after Christ we will talk about Heaven and Hell equally and/or as often as we need to, in order to help a lost person make an informed decision to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, repent and be saved. Lastly, how can you lead a person to a decision for salvation, Gary, without showing them that they are lost and on their way to Hell, first? What would they need to REPENT from if they are not shown that they are sinners? We need to choose to FOCUS on ALL of what our Savior focuses on, that includes Heaven and Hell. What do you think Jesus focused on when He was on the cross? He said, "It is finished." (That's a hint.) -CB

No CB you seem to have missed my point entirely. I never stated that we should never talk about Hell...Indeed Jesus did talk about it. My reason for posting was to correct what I believe to be an error. Jesus simply did not talk about Hell more than He did Heaven. If we are to pattern ourselves after Christ we will talk about Heaven 4 or 5 times as often as we talk about Hell near as I can figure. To imply that Jesus spent more time focused on Hell is to infer that He was more judgment focused as I stated. I believe that is an error.

Let me ask you this. as a parent...do you enjoy talking about the times you have to punish your children more than you do talking about the times things are great? Yes...we do punish our children. But my heart is not focused on the punishment.

Please don't come back with more verses that reflect punishment...of course they are in the scriptures. I could of course spend a great deal of time quoting scriptures that show Christ's focus on His love and reward. My point was and is that I choose to focus MORE on what my Savior focused MORE on...Heaven and my eternal reward!!!

As you perhaps are aware, Gary, neither fear of hell, nor love of heaven will save a person. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith. (Eph.2:8) "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting life." (Jn 3:16) Where will the soul perish to? HELL, of course. This truth should be told because Jesus told it and because it is real. I know of a person who when he learned about HELL became very interested in learning how to avoid it. That person ulitmately became saved and is now pastoring a large church.

What must we do to be saved? Saved from what? Eternal fire, Hell, forever separation from God, where their worm dieth not, where demons and satan and all evil will be for eternity. Yes, some will be responisive to the "for God so LOVED the world" part, but others will respond to the "should not PERISH" part. This is not a "fear tactic" it is a reality. If someone asks you why they should be born again, yes, one of your answers should honestly be "to avoid the fires of hell". That is a very reasonable and honest answer that provokes motivation to inquire further. It should be included in the discussion with a lost person. Even a little child can determine that they don't want to go to hell. Once they realize that they are lost and on their way to a terrible place called hell, it leads to the next logical question of how do we NOT go there? That is where the free gift of God's "only begotten Son" comes in. That is where the word REPENT comes in. This is the answer to the pending hell question that when asked, should be answered. The Saviour you "try to emulate" said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Mt. 10:28) "And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Mt. 12:13-14) "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16) Gary, why did Jesus, who you "try to emulate" come? Jesus said, "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Luke 19:10) All four of the Gospels have this theme running through them: hell, torment, weeping, gnashing of teeth, damnation, fire, etc. and how to avoid these consequences of sin. To tell people about this truth is to show them the greatest LOVE. John 13:35 that you quoted from another translation, actually says in the KJV, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." John 15:13 says, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Why did Jesus suffer and die on the cross? Jesus said, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:3) In other words, so that we can be saved and married with Him forever and NOT lost forever in hell. Therefore, would NOT telling folks about hell be dishonest? Dishonesty was never a trait of Jesus that one could emulate. On that note, it is far easier to let the Holy Spirit emulate Jesus Christ through us than to try to do the emulating ourselves which is not something our Heavenly Father expects us to be able to do. Emulate means to try to equal or excel. Perhaps you meant something else, semantically speaking? "Be ye holy, for I am holy." Thank you, Gary, for your reply to my reply to your comment to Pastor Bishir's blog. I am really looking forward to additional replies to any of the aformentioned. Please do excuse me if the above explanation is not as clear to you as it is clear to me in my head. :) -CB

Thanks for the reply CB,

However, if someone asks me why they should be born again and my answer is to avoid the fires of hell, it paints a sad commentary on my salvation experience and my relationship with Christ. The truth is Jesus was much more focused on Heaven than He was on hell. He was much more focused on Loving Grace than he was on Judgment. That is the Savior I try to emulate. I believe we have a tendency to see in scripture a reflection of what is in our hearts. This is why it is so important to have the Word (Christ) alive in our hearts. God is Love, the new covenant is based on love, the greatest and new command is love, and only through the lens of love can we understand the scriptures. After all the very one who is called LOVE wrote them. Furthermore...it is the Holy Spirit who draws men unto Himself, not my scare tactics. Sinners flocked to Jesus not because He was preaching judgment to them...but because they could tell He LOVED them like no one ever had before. Let us not forget, Jesus harsh rebukes were never directed towards those who sought Him, they were towards those in the church who had judgment in their hearts. May the world always know me for my love, for that is my command!! This is how all men will know I am His disciple. John 13:35

TOTAL SCORE in 4 Gospels estimated: "Hell" - 14 "Fire" - 21 We also must consider the verses leading up to and following these words that Jesus used when he talked about Hell, because in the blog the statement was that Jesus "spoke of" Hell more than Heaven, not just the number of times that each word appears in the Gospels, but the topic itself. Greetings Gary! I hope you won't mind if I comment on your comment. Even if the word "Hell" was only named once in the Bible it is a terrible place of eternal punishment, torment, weeping and gnashing of teeth. It is reason enough to cause some to pause and think, which can then lead a soul toward salvation. Some people will only come to a point of salvation out of a fear of hell and the wrath of a Just God. Jude says, "But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude1:20-23) When I was a child, I had a great reverential fear of a little red paddle that was used to spank me when I did wrong. That little red paddle helped me to learn early that obedience is the least painful way to travel through life. I am just a layperson, but I think Hell might be considered a consequence of God's righteousness. Jeremiah 9 says, "Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. Behold the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised; Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart." (Jeremiah 9:23-26) Hell may not be the only reason a person accepts Jesus as their Savior, but it is a valid, real and Biblical point to make if someone asks why they should be born again.

Hope everyone is having a blessed day in the Lord today! Where's Carolyn? -CB

I have enjoyed your blog pastor though I do not often comment. Keep sharing from your heart.

Unfortunately I write today to take you a little to task over your point 2 above. I challenge you to go through the Gospels and count the number of times Jesus spoke of Heaven compared to the times He spoke of Hell. I found in Matthew alone 45 references to Heaven (not including the additional 19 times he referred to His Father in Heaven) and I quit counting for lack of time. But I only found 7 references to Hell in Matthew. In fact I only found 12 references to Hell in all the gospels combined.

I agree with you pastor...there is a literal Heaven to be gained and a Hell to be avoided...but I struggle with reconciling the idea of scaring people into heaven with Christ's overwhelming focus on Love and a desire for a personal relationship with them.

God Bless Pastor, and please accept my thoughts in the Spirit of love as intended. Gary

"WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT HELL"

"For the wages of sin is death"

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

AMEN!!!!!

When one, seeks one finds. Look at what I found today! A rare Wednesday blog. It is Christmas in July! Thanks for the gift! Believe it or not, I have been thinking about this very same subject of "hell". Thank you for putting the reality of hell out there for all readers to see. Along side the topic of "hell", I have also been thinking about the "wrath of God" and how many "social churches" are going to have to face that very fact some day. People who don't like to hear about hell are really not going to like to hear about the wrath of God which is why WE MUST TELL THEM. Read Hosea. Have a blessed day! -CB